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Waterloo battle1 (Allies)

5 years 6 months ago #1 by Awld Hooky

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  • Hi Folks,

    I have a query regarding the first Waterloo battle as the allies. It is designated a Green level difficulty but I am finding it anything but Green ? I've played it dozens of times and have just about given up on completing it basically because the balance doesn't seem right. I will post some screenshots to elaborate my point. The Battle has a 2000 score requirement for the main victory ? Seems a tough ask considering the position and seemingly OP French infantry and their comrades blazing away on both flanks with cannon. So I try and hold the woods for 15 minutes (which is about as long as my Infantry can hold against the french Infantry) and score around about half of the required MV requirement, once the troops have been decimated I retreat to the farmhouse with the remnants of troops and try to hold until the AI reinforcements arrive. In the woods the CP has a value of 100 points per minute which would mean about 1500 points after 15 minutes if no casualties were being suffered, but with the casualties deducted from the score it's about 900-1000 points thus far. That means I need another 1000 points from the farm CP, but that is only 50 points per minute and with only 15 mins remaining and add the steadily rising casualty list, I find it impossible to reach the 2000 MV score. The main thing I'm finding impossible is inflicting enough casualties on the French to either hinder their plans or reduce the deficit for the MV score. Each time I've played it the balance of casualties has been significantly higher for my regts than the French, I can stand 3-4 regts in front of 1 French regt and they are virtually untroubled. I have posted a screenshot of the type of imbalance I'm talking about. I've tried all sorts of tactics, flanking, fire and move, charging the cannons to reduce the casualties, retreating to the farmhouse from the offset (which doesn't work because the timer doesn't activate if you do it too soon) and even then the casualty rate is still soaring when I garrison the farm. I watched for about 2 minutes the casualty rate, with my troops in the shelter of the farm and inflicted not one casualty on the French but my casualties continue to soar. Compare this to say the QB04 battle where the French have many farms to capture and I've watched 4 regts of French get virtually pasted by one regt of defenders and even seen a couple of the attackers flee for their lives with heaps of their comrades strewn the ground ? So I ask myself "Is the Waterloo battle No1 as the Allies right ?" Is it bugged ? Am I doing something wrong ? Has anyone else experienced any of the issues I'm talking about ? Any replies comments or suggestions will be gratefully received. The nearest I've got to the 2000 score is 1500, which was a Victory, my last attempt 1300, another victory but the 2000 just seems out of the question :ohmy: I've had to swerve it now and moved on through the battles and am currently on the Allies No8 battle and haven't experienced any real issues regards scoring since No1, it's just been a matter of tactics, but No1 seems to be my stumbling block ?? :( :angry: :unsure: I hope this doesn't come across as complaining or bitching, it isn't intended to be anything of the sort, but I have heard of bugs in the game, like the GB game where their was a MV score that differed form the promotion score and have seen one of those situations in Waterloo, which caught me by surprise when I thought I'd achieved the promotion mark but only achieved the MV. Anyways as always any replies will be gratefully received :)
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    5 years 6 months ago #2 by DarkRob

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  • Hmm, this is strange. Ive played this scenario many times and never had a problem achieving a major victory, either as the French or the allies. Are you playing at an extremely high difficulty? That's the only thing I can think of that would make it near unwinnable. At normal difficulty the scenario is easy.
    What you say about the French cannon also makes me wonder whats going on. Everytime Ive played this scenario the French cannon stay exactly where they are deployed at the beginning and never move. And as far as effectiveness goes the stock artillery may as well be firing giant cotton balls at you.(For devastating artillery, see the KS mod)

    But generally I follow a similar strategy as you. I hold the woods for about half the scenario and then withdraw into Hougomont. Ive never had a problem getting way over 2000 points. And generally my casualties are a lot less than the French. That's why I ask what difficulty you're playing on, because assuming a game proficiency at least equal to my own(by no means am I Napoleon)you should win this easily on normal difficulty.
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    5 years 6 months ago #3 by Awld Hooky

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  • Thank you DarkRob for your reply and your experiences of the battle. Firstly I'm not altering the difficulty level, it's just the stock scenario from the list of battles in Waterloo Battles. I have the main settings set to normal and have played all the Allies, French and Quatre Bras battles with the same system and have completed all but two of these 25 battles, the first battle as the allies and the ninth battle as the French (that's one tough battle no matter what difficulty it is Lol). Since posting the query I have completed the allies battles 8+9 with no problems and got the MV and it's just scenario 1. The casualties I'm suffering is the issue and like I said it's a green difficulty battle so I'm not expecting it to be hard to complete, maybe like playing the tutorial again ? But it isn't so simple. Secondly, sorry for any confusion about the French artillery, when I say they are on the flanks I just meant the position they are and they don't move but they are bowling over my troops like skittles. I just can't figure it out and your experience has me even more puzzled now :S I'm coming to the conclusion that my game must have a bug or something which is only affecting that one battle ? Though I have seen some strange things in other battles, like unoccupied buildings seemingly occupied (but no flags visible over them) and thus unable to capture and takes forever to suppress the invisible occupants (see screenshot) ? But Thanks again for the info, hopefully I'll get over this small hurdle and fly the flag of major victory in all the scenarios....eventually :P
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    5 years 6 months ago - 5 years 6 months ago #4 by DarkRob

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  • The stock artillery in this game is almost completely ineffectual unless you actually come really close to them(Say within 200 yards)other than that, like I said they might as well be firing stuffed teddy bears at you. Since they are deployed along the main French line and you are either clustered in the woods or in the fort they shouldn't be able to do virtually anything to you. I can only assume if the cannon are causing problems for you that you are trying to attack them? If so, don't do that. Ignore them completely and they will do little more than put on a nice fireworks show for you to watch.

    Your troops start off a little scattered at the beginning of the scenario. Theres your troops in the woods, two small british detachments in front of the fort and another small allied force hiding behind the fort in the field. Gather them all up and form a line in the woods roughly facing the oncoming French force and straddling the objective hex. Make sure you keep an officer and the required number of men within range of the objective hex at all times. The woods give you a defensive terrain bonus and the officer gives you a commander bonus. Forming a line with your units gives each unit the support bonus so your stacking at least 3 separate bonuses now. The French lead off with skirmishers while the main line advances slower. You should be able to hold off the skirmishers and the French advance for 15 minutes at least with no problem. Once the main French force begins moving around your flanks though its time to withdraw into the fort. The fort IS NOT the fenced in area on the right. Rather you have to actually move your troops into the fort.(Place your arrow in the center of the fort. The units will walk into the fort and you will see the unit flag float through the fort into the center where it becomes part of the garrison.) Move your whole force in the fort. At that point your in a heavily defended fort and you should be able to shoot at the French at will while racking up objective points. After you move into the fort you will be reinforced by two british foot guard units. This is how I do it and everytime I get a major victory.

    Overall I should point out, this is a delaying action. You're not trying to beat the French here. Just slow them down. Get in their way and force them to stop and start shooting. You have all the bonuses and they come at you with only skirmishers at first.
    Last edit: 5 years 6 months ago by DarkRob.
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    5 years 6 months ago #5 by Awld Hooky

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  • Thanks Rob, a wonderful reply and quite lengthy. Believe me I know what this level is all about and how to approach it and what the task involves. According to your description I should have walked this battle at the first attempt like most other battles, especially considering it is a green level difficulty ? So I have just attempted the battle again twice and once/twice again I am getting completely mullahed !! So instead of trying to explain what I'm talking about I took a number of screenshots to prove my point and I hope you can see where I am coming from. It's not a case of a noob playing and clueless about the game, I've put 305 hours into this since buying it just after xmas and pretty much know how to approach battle and conduct my army. This battle is just not looking right, I've fought it probably 20,30 maybe 40 times and the outcome is nearly always the same. Anyways please see the screenshots and you'll get a better idea. Thanks anyway :)

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    5 years 6 months ago #6 by DarkRob

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  • Awld Hooky wrote: Thanks Rob, a wonderful reply and quite lengthy. Believe me I know what this level is all about and how to approach it and what the task involves. According to your description I should have walked this battle at the first attempt like most other battles, especially considering it is a green level difficulty ? So I have just attempted the battle again twice and once/twice again I am getting completely mullahed !! So instead of trying to explain what I'm talking about I took a number of screenshots to prove my point and I hope you can see where I am coming from. It's not a case of a noob playing and clueless about the game, I've put 305 hours into this since buying it just after xmas and pretty much know how to approach battle and conduct my army. This battle is just not looking right, I've fought it probably 20,30 maybe 40 times and the outcome is nearly always the same. Anyways please see the screenshots and you'll get a better idea. Thanks anyway :)


    The screenshots give me an idea of your losses and yes, they don't look right. But they don't give me the whole story. This scenario is only 30 minutes long. If you can, record yourself playing the scenario and then upload it to youtube. Then I can watch the whole thing and get a better idea of whats going on. Even if you had only a rudimentary grasp of the game(for the sake of argument, not saying this is the case) you shouldn't be getting mauled. If you upload a video of it to youtube I can see exactly whats going on.
    Admittedly, I haven't played the stock game in awhile as I pretty much exclusively play the KS mod now, but I definitely remember playing this scenario a bunch of times and I know its one of the easiest scenarios in the game. I would say only French 1(Baudins assault) is easier.
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    5 years 6 months ago - 5 years 6 months ago #7 by Awld Hooky

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  • Thanks again Rob, unfortunately I only have the demo version of bandicam to use at present because my fraps program doesn't work since upgrading to W10. But I ran the battle again whilst recording, but only got to 12 mins before stopping the recording, suffering 400+ casualties and inflicting only 80+after roughly 12 mins should be enough for you to see what I'm talking about lol So since it's been a long time since I recorded anything and uploaded to YT I'll send the link later on for you to have a laugh ha ha :lol: Honestly though it's just bizarre :whistle:
    Last edit: 5 years 6 months ago by Awld Hooky. Reason: Removing the video link, it did it's job

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    5 years 6 months ago - 5 years 6 months ago #8 by DarkRob

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  • Awld Hooky wrote: Thanks again Rob, unfortunately I only have the demo version of bandicam to use at present because my fraps program doesn't work since upgrading to W10. But I ran the battle again whilst recording, but only got to 12 mins before stopping the recording, suffering 400+ casualties and inflicting only 80+after roughly 12 mins should be enough for you to see what I'm talking about lol So since it's been a long time since I recorded anything and uploaded to YT I'll send the link later on for you to have a laugh ha ha :lol: Honestly though it's just bizarre :whistle:

    www.youtube.com/channel/UC0A2rpDJk9vrdmN63nhkCgw Here's the link to my channel and the 2 short videos..hope they are enough for you to form an opinion Sir DarkRob :)


    Choppy, but definitely watchable. The first thing I can see is you aren't deploying skirmishers at all. Skirmishers have better marksmanship and are harder to hit than line troops. Notice how the French have skirmishers deployed in front of their main lines. They are basically picking your guys off because you have all your troops massed all together, with lines over lapping and sometimes 3 units stacked up one behind the other. The troops in back have their LOS blocked by the troops in front so they are basically good for nothing. Also your double quicking your troops like mad. This needlessly tires them out. I almost never use double quick except to get troops out of a bad situation quickly. If you deploy skirmishers at the beginning they will be able to slow down the French advance long enough for you to deploy a lot more neatly and without having to double quick.

    Long story short, you're massing your troops way to densely and giving the French skirmishers a cant miss situation, while you yourself have no skirmishers in front for the French skirmishers to contend with. You don't need to have all your troops on the front line at the same time. Hold some back in reserve. There isn't a huge amount of ground to cover. Present a smaller target and the French will have more trouble bringing their superior numbers to bear in such a small space.

    The game seems to me to be working correctly. Your casualties are high because the French are using skirmishers and you aren't. Coupled with the fact that you are presenting them an amazing target by being so overly massed together.
    Last edit: 5 years 6 months ago by DarkRob.
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    5 years 6 months ago #9 by Awld Hooky

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  • :) Brilliant observation Rob, you are spot on I have neglected the use of skirmishers and can only put that down to experience of the larger battles were I've had cavalry to protect the Infantry and deal with enemy skirmishers :ohmy: Your advice could literally be the game changer and I shall implement the tactic in my next effort. And yes you are also correct about the infantry being rushed to position in the video, I have to admit this isn't my normal tactic, I would normally walk regiments into position using roads especially and save their energy for the fight and possible need for counter charges (significantly more important for cavalry), but with the battle being short (30mins) and the distance being relatively short I was not so concerned in the troops conserving energy and probably my frustration was clouding my judgement anyway. Like I say I will take your advice and apply them and hopefully I'll get back to you with good news. Lastly, Thanks, huge Thanks for all your replies and insight and taking the time to respond and also watch the video (yep, the quality wasn't great ! Don't know if it was bandicam or just the frame rate, but it was a bit laggy compared to how the game looks). But anyhow many many Thanks good Sir

    PS You should be called LightRob not DarkRob because you have shown me the light :cheer:

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    5 years 6 months ago #10 by Awld Hooky

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  • ................................BREAKING NEWS...........................BREAKING NEWS............................

    ..................................TODAY AT WATERLOO A GLORIOUS VICTORY WAS ACHIEVED..............................

    :) I'm one happy bunny !! It took a couple of attempts, but non the less I finally (with your expert advice) claimed a Major Victory :P Man oh Man that was so good to see that score bar hit and pass the 2000 mark, also I managed to hold the woods until about 3 mins from the end and still had men delaying the French there when McDonnel retreated to Hougoumont !! I can't contain my delight Lol Here's a couple of screenshots for you to see the fruits of your endeavors good Sir and three mighty "Huzzahs" to you for your advice DarkRob, you've been a massive help with that sticking point :cheer: You shall be forever remembered as "LightRob" the champion of Light Skirmishers :lol:
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    5 years 6 months ago #11 by Saddletank

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  • The game does not make any calculations against massed targets. It ignores every unit except the one the shooters are firing at. That target could be alone on the planet or at the front of a Greek phalanx of men behind it, but no-one in the rear units would get hit.

    The games handling of densely packed targets is completely non-functional.

    I do agree that your stacked units put out less fire effect however due to the 'shooting over' negatives the game applies. Its better to place battalions side by side rather then behind one another or intermingled.

    I was not aware that skirmishers really put out that much more firepower at all, or even took less hits than line troops.

    HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.
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    5 years 6 months ago - 5 years 6 months ago #12 by Awld Hooky

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  • Thanks Saddletank for your contribution and information. I'm no expert on the mechanics of Scourge yet but I have noticed that about Scourge Waterloo that only the targeted regt suffers casualties from the direct enemy regt/regts, not like Total War games were all and sundry takes hits, even the general staff who maybe some distance in the rear :( And I think the skirmishers were more of a nuisance to the advancing French who failed to really get a foothold in the wood in the battle that got me the MV, but going on the kills to losses ratio, it was much more even than many previous attempts, so either the skirmishers were doing a great job or the combination of skirmishers and Line Infantry in unison were inflicting the casualties. Also you and DarkRob are both correct, I'm a stickler for order normally and like my lines to be neat and properly deployed, last man on the line touching the shoulder of the neighboring regiments last man on the line, but in the fury of this short and bloody exchange I was forced to muddle them the best I could and didn't have time to get the yard stick out ha ha :laugh: But as a rule I'd normally use the group formation functions, single line, double line and then place Brigades somewhat overlapping so to create a denser formation. All in all it was a good lesson in the use of skirmishers as a hindrance to advancing enemy units and I'll be sure to use them more often in future ;)

    "Death loves a crowd"
    Last edit: 5 years 6 months ago by Awld Hooky. Reason: Extra message

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    5 years 6 months ago - 5 years 6 months ago #13 by DarkRob

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  • Awld Hooky wrote: Thanks Saddletank for your contribution and information. I'm no expert on the mechanics of Scourge yet but I have noticed that about Scourge Waterloo that only the targeted regt suffers casualties from the direct enemy regt/regts, not like Total War games were all and sundry takes hits, even the general staff who maybe some distance in the rear :( And I think the skirmishers were more of a nuisance to the advancing French who failed to really get a foothold in the wood in the battle that got me the MV, but going on the kills to losses ratio, it was much more even than many previous attempts, so either the skirmishers were doing a great job or the combination of skirmishers and Line Infantry in unison were inflicting the casualties. Also you and DarkRob are both correct, I'm a stickler for order normally and like my lines to be neat and properly deployed, last man on the line touching the shoulder of the neighboring regiments last man on the line, but in the fury of this short and bloody exchange I was forced to muddle them the best I could and didn't have time to get the yard stick out ha ha :laugh: But as a rule I'd normally use the group formation functions, single line, double line and then place Brigades somewhat overlapping so to create a denser formation. All in all it was a good lesson in the use of skirmishers as a hindrance to advancing enemy units and I'll be sure to use them more often in future ;)

    "Death loves a crowd"


    Truth be told, skirmishers in this game aren't really that good. Its more that they are good in this particular scenario. Notice their isn't any cavalry around. Cavalry eats those little skirmisher groups like tater tots.
    The way KS handles skirmishers is way way better.I used to not think so but thats because I hadn't figured out how to use them right. KS skirmishers will stop a line or column cold in their tracks and inflict way more casualties than they take. They have the advantage of being able to form square should some pesky horsey's come around because in KS skirmishers are entire battalions that assume a skirmish formation.
    When your done the playing all the scenarios in the stock game I highly recommend trying the KS mod. Better infantry formations, better skirmishers, different types of cavalry, devastating artillery(comes at a price, you really have to protect their flanks with infantry), all new scenarios, maps,OOB's, etc etc. Its good stuff.

    Also congratulations on beating it :)
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    5 years 6 months ago - 5 years 6 months ago #14 by Awld Hooky

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  • Thanks very much DarkRob, the victory goes to you my friend :) I know what you mean about the skirmishers, I tried them out on the French 09 scenario and they proved somewhat "light on their heels" :pinch: ha ha I'll add another screenshot, it's quite funny, the Allies must have read my thoughts because they sent forth hundreds of them! I'll persevere though, it's quite a fun battle but the 10,000 promotion score seems somewhat hefty considering the MV score is 3000 ? My last attempt I bagged 7100, so I'm improving :unsure:

    Yes indeed regards the KS mod and Saddletank knows I already tried out the mod because I wanted the marching music experience lol I still have it installed, I just disabled it to try and complete the stock scenarios (I felt I was neglecting the original series of battles) but as soon as I'm done with France 09 and the Ligny scenarios (hardly touched those yet) I shall be returning to the excellent KS mod and all it's wonderful features. To be honest I've gone a bit crazy with mods, anything that adds effects,textures or new sprites to the base game I've downloaded and tried and experienced the crashes when forgetting to disable them in anything but user scenarios :whistle: Looking forward to many many hours of fun. Once again though many thanks for all your input to this discussion, I am truly grateful :cheer:
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