Statistics

Users
2807
Articles
156
Articles View Hits
1655470

Split Brigade (v1.03 and Grog 7.1)

2 years 4 months ago - 2 years 4 months ago #1 by 52ndOx

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 120
  • Thank you received: 92

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • It looks like a brigade commander can't split his own command in a brigade scenario?

    This seems inconsistent as he can when TC'ed in a division scenario (where he operates independent of his division commander), and as the button is present on his context toolbar.

    Working as intended, or a bug, or a toolbar issue?

    (Maybe this is in the wrong place, I can't see a dedicated Grog thread.)

    For information this arose in the La Haye Sainte scenario.
    The two waypoint objectives are useless as they take a minute each to capture and give only 200 points, and whilst doing that you lose 1000 points that Charlet can get for just holding the farmhouse. (Would make more sense actually if the farmhouse was worth 50 points per minute instead of 500)

    But regardless - a junior officer with a battalion or two could take them if Charlet could order it.
    Last edit: 2 years 4 months ago by 52ndOx.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    2 years 4 months ago - 2 years 4 months ago #2 by DarkRob

  • Regimental Commander
  • Regimental Commander

  • Posts: 318
  • Thank you received: 284

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • It's definitely not a toolbar issue, but it could be a game bug. It also might not be a bug and could be intended to be that way. As a brigade commander you are the lowest ranking officer in the game. You aren't supposed to have other officers under your command. And splitting your brigade essentially gives you two mini brigades.

    In a division scenario since you are the division commander, you can order your subordinate brigades to do such things, but it sounds reasonable to me that a brigade commander in a brigade scenario wouldn't be allowed to do that.

    I've never tried to do this because there are no brigade scenarios in the game where doing this is necessary to win, and for a long time the split brigade function didn't work at all.

    Mitra would have to chime in on this issue for a true answer because he's the one that fixed the split brigade issue a few months back.


    Edit: Also, just TC'ing a brigade commander does not remove him from the chain of command. He is still considered to be under the division commander. It's just that you are commanding him instead of the AI. I know that can sound confusing, but try and think of the chain of command and the AI as two seperate things.
    Last edit: 2 years 4 months ago by DarkRob.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    2 years 4 months ago - 2 years 4 months ago #3 by 52ndOx

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 120
  • Thank you received: 92

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I think that is blurring the lines a bit.
    In a division scenario a brigade can be detached and the leader TC'ed.

    If the brigade is split there, and the game does allow it, then it can't be the division commander that orders it. He is by definition ignored.

    When you TC a unit and command it directly you assume that unit leader's character ambient temporarily. So the orders are his own and not his superior's. (Otherwise you should not TC but use the order mechanic instead).

    And there are neither any division scenarios where splitting a brigade is necessary to win. So that argument seems a bit weak.

    Splitting is a cool feature. It would be nice if it was always an option.
    Last edit: 2 years 4 months ago by 52ndOx.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    2 years 4 months ago - 2 years 4 months ago #4 by DarkRob

  • Regimental Commander
  • Regimental Commander

  • Posts: 318
  • Thank you received: 284

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I think that is blurring the lines a bit.
    In a division scenario a brigade can be detached and the leader TC'ed.

    If the brigade is split there, and the game does allow it, then it can't be the division commander that orders it. He is by definition ignored.

    When you TC a unit and command it directly you assume that unit leader's character ambient temporarily. So the orders are his own and not his superior's. (Otherwise you should not TC but use the order mechanic instead).

    And there are neither any division scenarios where splitting a brigade is necessary to win. So that argument seems a bit weak.

    Splitting is a cool feature. It would be nice if it was always an option.


    In a division scenario YOU are not a brigade commander, you're the division commander. You have officers under your command, you don't in brigade scenarios where you are the brigade commander and not the division commander.

    Division command is a whole different level of command than brigade. The same reasoning here would be the same reasoning as to why you don't command the captured guns in Hulot attacks. You're a brigade commander, you can't have other officers under your command.

    Also I wasn't making any argument by saying that it's not necessary to do this in any brigade scenario. I was just saying that's why I never tried to split a brigade in a brigade scenario.

    The key issue here is whether or not the split brigade function is supposed to work in a brigade scenario. I think not, because in a brigade level scenario you are supposed to be the only officer. But again, Mitra would have the final word on it.
    Last edit: 2 years 4 months ago by DarkRob.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    2 years 4 months ago #5 by 52ndOx

  • Junior Member
  • Junior Member

  • Posts: 120
  • Thank you received: 92

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I don't really agree, but that's fine.

    I think that when you TC a brigade commander in a division scenario you have to by definition assume the persona of that officer. Otherwise removing the division commander from the command process, and overriding the brigade officer's programmed traits makes zero sense. When TC'ed the officer in effect no longer exists, and you become him when you issue orders to your battalions.

    And if a Captain or Lieutenant can command a battalion or two in a division scenario, then it's difficult to see why he can't do the same thing in a brigade scenario.

    It's an immersion aspect for me.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    2 years 4 months ago - 2 years 4 months ago #6 by DarkRob

  • Regimental Commander
  • Regimental Commander

  • Posts: 318
  • Thank you received: 284

  • Gender: Unknown
  • Birthdate: Unknown
  • I don't really agree, but that's fine.

    I think that when you TC a brigade commander in a division scenario you have to by definition assume the persona of that officer. Otherwise removing the division commander from the command process, and overriding the brigade officer's programmed traits makes zero sense. When TC'ed the officer in effect no longer exists, and you become him when you issue orders to your battalions.

    And if a Captain or Lieutenant can command a battalion or two in a division scenario, then it's difficult to see why he can't do the same thing in a brigade scenario.

    It's an immersion aspect for me.


    You are confusing disabling the AI and your role in the scenario. TC'ing an officer just disables the AI's ability to control him. It does not make you that officer. The officer you play in the scenario is always the same. It doesn't change because you TC an officer under your command.

    In your example of a division scenario for instance, you speak of removing the division commander from the command process. That is not the case because you ARE the division commander. All TC'ing a brigade commander will mean is that you have to control him directly as the AI can no longer control him and he wont respond to division level commands or formations. But even controlling him directly, you as the division commander, are still commanding him. You are not the brigade commander.

    If you want to see this concept represented visually, then enable couriers in the options menu. You will see that even if you TC a brigade commander and then click on him and order him to do anything, a courier will still be dispatched to the brigade commander from the division commander because you are still the division commander, and all commands still come from you. You do not assume the role of the brigade commander, you merely control him directly.

    And in a brigade scenario, you are supposed to be the only officer because you are the lowest rank in the game as far as command rank goes. A captain or lieutenant may be formally lower in rank than your brigade commander, but that doesn't matter to the game. Once split, they are effectively acting as brigade commanders themselves. And you cant have more than one brigade commander under your command in a brigade scenario, because within the chain of command, that would require you to be a division commander in order to command them both, effectively turning your brigade scenario into a division scenario.

    I am not saying for sure that this is the reason brigade commanders cannot split their brigades in a brigade scenario. The devs may well have intended for brigade commanders to be able to do this. But I don't think so. I think its intentional, and it makes sense once you fully understand the command structure of the game and the role of a commander in any given scenario.

    Although Mitra hasn't responded to this thread yet, Im like 99% sure Im right on this. It just makes sense with the rest of the game.
    Last edit: 2 years 4 months ago by DarkRob.

    Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

    Moderators: RebBuglergunship24Leffe7Sargonpaul9038